Kevin Kinzel Fluffy Fields Vineyard

Tyler Bertsch: All right, Let’s get started. So, how did you get into this madness of growing grapes?

Kevin Kinzel: I always kind of had a little bit of farmer left in me from when I grew up on a farm. With grapes, you don't need a lot of acreage. We only had our seven and a half acres, so we started planting gardens, and that ran right into planting grapes.

Tyler Bertsch: And you're located in Dickinson, North Dakota, right?

Kevin Kinzel: Yes, correct.

Tyler Bertsch: And you told me it was the most inhospitable place for grapes or something like that.

Kevin Kinzel: Yes, it is. It's one of the most terrible places to try to grow grapes at, for sure.

Tyler Bertsch: So, I guess give me a background of what the temperatures are like. How cold can it get, what kind of winds you get, hail, whatever.

Kevin Kinzel: It used to be that we would reach down into the 50’s below zero wind chills pretty regularly, and that 30 below temperature wasn't normal, and it would get that way for weeks on end. So now with the climate change or whatever you want to call it, we are getting temperature swings from being 50, 60 in February, dropping back to zero in two days. The wind blows here constantly. Normally, we have at least a 15-to 20-mile-an-hour breeze three-quarters of the week, and with gusts getting up to 80 to 100 miles an hour at times with storms.

Tyler Bertsch: So, navigating all that chaos, how did you first learn to plant this stuff? What year did you plant your first vine, and how did you learn? Did you just do trial and error?

Kevin Kinzel: No, we learned the tough way. It was in 2010, I believe. I decided to order some grapes out of the Gurney's catalog. They were all southern varieties of grapes, so they didn't do very well up here. We did have a couple that did make the first winter, but they weren't coming in the spring so the wife decided to dig them up. She threw them in the fire pit, and that night on the news, one of the local nurseries said, "Grape growers, don't worry, they're just slow this year. They'll be coming." So she went into the fire pit, looked at some of them, and sure enough, they had buds starting. So then she stuck them back in the ground, and I think we have three of them, the original grapes, left.

Tyler Bertsch: Do you know what varieties they were?

Kevin Kinzel: The ones that are left were actually Frontenacs. They were some of not out of the first planting, but out of the second planting were the Frontenacs that were left. And then after that, we heard about the North Dakota Grape Growers Association, so we went to one of their annual meetings and talked to Professor Harlene Hatterman-Valenti to find out what kind of grapes would grow in this part of the state. At that time, Tom Plocher was messing with his Petite Pearl, just releasing it. So we actually put in some of them, and some Marquette, Brianna, Frontenac Gris, Prairie Star, Sabrevois, and I think that was about it that we planted. Oh, some Louise Swenson. Most of them are gone now. The Sabrevois are gone, we have a few Brianna left, a lot of the Frontenac Gris are still alive, and some of the Prairie Star. So we are just waiting now to replant. Five years ago, we had major temperature swings. We went from almost 70 down to, I think it was, five below in two days, and we lost about 70 percent of our vines that year.

Tyler Bertsch: Which ones survived the best?

Kevin Kinzel: At that time, it was the Frontenac Gris and the Frontenac red that survived.

Tyler Bertsch: How many plants do you have, or acres, or generally how many did you end up planting?

Kevin Kinzel: We started out with almost two acres of grapes. And then as they froze out and we built the winery, part of the areas of the vineyard that were dead, we turned them into the wedding area, gazebo area. So right now we have a little over an acre of vineyard left. I shouldn't say grapes because I would say probably 40 to 60 percent we have not replanted.

Tyler Bertsch: So what varieties do you have today that completely survived?

Kevin Kinzel: Well, the NDSU grape breeding program had released two varieties that they had bred, and actually, the Dakota Primus was looking like the hardiest. It was out-surviving the Frontenac and Frontenac Gris, handling the temperature swings better, but I did notice this spring that even one of them succumbed to life.

Tyler Bertsch: But you think it generally performs better than the Frontenac?

Kevin Kinzel: I think we will be keeping track of it this year. I know a lot of our Frontenac Gris again are suckering back from the bottom. We started retraining them three years ago, and a good portion of them are suckering back again this year.

Tyler Bertsch: What's the other NDSU release? It's Dakota Primus and is it Radiant?

Kevin Kinzel: Radiant, yes. Radiant is just a little more fragile, a little more petite is a good word to say. Not as aggressive as the Primus.

Tyler Bertsch: When you say aggressive, do you mean as far as vigor, just not as vigorous as Primus?

Kevin Kinzel: Yes, not as vigorous, not as hardy of looking a vine.

Tyler Bertsch: So you have Dakota Primus, you have Radiant. What else do you have that's survived over your time?

Kevin Kinzel: Actually, we have an NDSU test plot of I forget what we put out, I think something like 60 vines. And some of their crosses are vigorous, grow wonderfully, put out abundant grapes, but they are so high in acid that they make you pucker. Beautiful vines, though.

Tyler Bertsch: Besides those, what else do you still have? Still Frontenac Gris?

Kevin Kinzel: Frontenac Gris, we have Frontenac, some of the Prairie Star are hanging in there, and Brianna. Those are about the only ones left. There are a couple of struggling Petite Pearl left, but most of that area is pretty well frozen out.

Tyler Bertsch: Petite Pearl is gone, the Louise Swenson is gone, Sabrevois is gone. That's kind of crazy.

Kevin Kinzel: And the Sabrevois was looking wonderful, beautiful for the first eight years or so.

Tyler Bertsch: That's usually a pretty tough one. Interesting. So before I move on, I have to ask: how long were those vines in that pile before you replanted them?

Kevin Kinzel: In the fire pit? Just about a day and a half.

Tyler Bertsch: That just blows my mind. I think that's cool. So what was your land used for before you guys put in a vineyard?

Kevin Kinzel: It was actually just an alfalfa field when we moved here.

Tyler Bertsch: Did you have many problems with excess nitrogen?

Kevin Kinzel: Yes, I think we still do. We need to get on a better fertilizer program, that is for sure.

Tyler Bertsch: Do you ever have issues with winter damage because of just overly vigorous vines, meaning they just keep growing too late in the season or grow too fast?

Kevin Kinzel: Yes, I would say that some years they do not get enough warning that winter's coming, so they don't have time to harden off. One year we had 18 inches of snow and it was early October. The grapes were still on the vine.

Tyler Bertsch: So out of this list—Dakota Primus, Radiant, the two Frontenacs, Prairie Star, and Brianna—of those six grapes, are there some that you feel struggle to get hardened off before winter on a consistent basis?

Kevin Kinzel: I would say it'd have to be the Brianna and the Prairie Star because we really don't know enough about the Primus and Radiant yet. Usually the Frontenac and Frontenac Gris are pretty hardened off.

Tyler Bertsch: And so besides winter damage from not hardening off, do you notice if Brianna and Prairie Star get the most winter damage too?

Kevin Kinzel: More damage than the Frontenac you're referring to? Yes, they do. Frontenacs do good when it gets cold and stays cold.

Tyler Bertsch: What kind of soil type do you have? Is it more loam, clay loam, clay, or sand?

Kevin Kinzel: We've got some nice loam down on the bottom, but we also have up on our little slope, we actually get into some sandstone up there.

Tyler Bertsch: So do you notice a difference in vigor or winter damage based on the soil type?

Kevin Kinzel: Yes, but I would say it's not just the soil because the ones that are down in the better soil are more protected too by shelterbelts. So I would think that helps them a lot. But you can tell that the vines that are up on the sandier, lighter soil are not as big.

Tyler Bertsch: Another North Dakota grower had mentioned that their exposed vines, like the ones that aren't protected, seem to have more delayed bud break, or spring desiccating winds would delay their development compared to the same variety further down the rows. Has that been your experience?

Kevin Kinzel: Yes, it has. And then, being in a residential area, where farmers and everybody know a little bit better once you register your vineyard, your neighbors spray their grass no matter what. So you have to—that's one of the bigger things: getting a little bit of the spray drift is weakening the vines a little bit too before winter comes.

Tyler Bertsch: Did you notice a difference between Sabrevois and Prairie Star, Brianna, and the Frontenacs for herbicide damage? Did they respond differently?

Kevin Kinzel: That would be hard to say because part are on one side of the road and part are on the other side of the road, so they're not really eggs to eggs.

Tyler Bertsch: Have you seen damage on all of them before?

Kevin Kinzel: Yes.

Tyler Bertsch: Is it mostly Dicamba or 2,4-D?

Kevin Kinzel: I think it's Dicamba.

Tyler Bertsch: My own personal thing is I see it on Frontenac more so than the other varieties. I don't see it on my Petite Pearl as much, but I didn't know if you had that kind of experience with certain herbicides or if you noticed any difference.

Kevin Kinzel: Well, the Petite Pearl we only had for about three years, and then they were dying back all the time, so it was hard to tell.

Tyler Bertsch: What do you think was the biggest mistake you made early on? Or do you feel like you were well-knowledgeable and didn't make any critical errors? For somebody that was new, what would you tell them not to do?

Kevin Kinzel: Do your research. Space your vines, your rows far enough apart, depending on what type of maintenance equipment you're going to use on them. That's one of the biggest things we've learned: don't crowd your rows. Because if you can't get down them with a tractor and a weed badger like we were planning on, you take too much time trying to get between them, where it takes too long to use mechanical equipment, so then you end up doing it all by hand. And find out your varieties.

Tyler Bertsch: So with those varieties, do you grow them all on high wire or what trellis do you use? Is it different for different varieties?

Kevin Kinzel: They are all VSP.

Tyler Bertsch: Do you think that's better or worse in your situation? Do you think that VSP has helped with the cold or do you think high wire or high cordon would be better?

Kevin Kinzel: When we were building the vineyard, that's basically what everybody was using, and there wasn't that much research going into it.

Tyler Bertsch: Do you think high wire would be better in hindsight, or do you still like having VSP?

Kevin Kinzel: Well, they're saying some varieties, yes, high wire is better.

Tyler Bertsch: I didn't know if in the spring it was better or not with those late spring frosts having it up off the ground more.

Kevin Kinzel: Well, that's an interesting thought. Would it be better to have them—is the air warmer four feet up higher? I don't know. I think there's a sweet spot, but I don't know the exact answer to that.

Tyler Bertsch:I did notice in my vineyard this year, we had an extremely hot year/winter, everything budded out 10 days earlier than the average date. I noticed when the frost came through, everything- all the suckers that were two feet below got zapped—which did the work for me, I appreciated that—but everything above survived. Everything from three to five and a half feet, that all made it. So I don't know, that's why I was curious if maybe that would help. But have you had issues with a late spring frost?

Kevin Kinzel: Yes, yes. Well, when does spring actually start anymore? Like I said, we're getting 50s for a week or two weeks in February.

Tyler Bertsch: With that, did you notice any changes as far as secondary fruitfulness on these varieties?

Kevin Kinzel: Right now, I think a lot of the Frontenac, being as how late they were in bud break, I'm thinking we must probably be on our third bud already because a few of them budded a few weeks ago and now we still have some that are breaking bud.

Tyler Bertsch: That's crazy in June. You are at the North Pole! Did you notice a difference between the varieties? So if they all got zapped, did you notice some varieties would still put out more fruit than others? Because what I'm getting at is I've been trying to gather how secondary fruitful some of these varieties are, which is good for growers in your situation who get hit with spring frost.

Kevin Kinzel: Well, about seven or eight years ago, we would be getting about 2,000 pounds off that acre, and now we are down to about 700 to 800 pounds. Is that because we're getting more of those temperature swings over the last few years? I would think so. I would say it's got a lot to do with it.

Tyler Bertsch: So most of your buds probably aren't fruitful then. An acre of grapes in Nebraska or even South Dakota, you're getting two to four tons. So I would say the majority, you're probably on secondary buds or tertiary buds. Is that a fair statement?

Kevin Kinzel: Yes, I would think so.

Tyler Bertsch: With that, which ones produce the most grapes in your situation? Because that might be telling.

Kevin Kinzel: Well, it used to be Sabrevois, but they're gone now, so it's the Frontenac Gris.

Tyler Bertsch: Do you notice a big difference between the Gris and the Frontenac Red?

Kevin Kinzel: No, I'd say they're pretty similar, but we have a lot more Frontenac Gris than we do Frontenac, so there's a lot more of them out there.

Tyler Bertsch: What about the Dakota Primus and the Radiant? Do you notice whether they are pretty fruitful still, or they take about the same hit that the Frontenac does?

Kevin Kinzel: Well, those vines are only, I think the oldest ones are four years old, five years old this year. So they're still young; you can't really get a production count off of them.

Tyler Bertsch: When you train them, how many—you have two cordons, right? And then how many spurs do you usually have?

Kevin Kinzel: Usually, we go for about 28 buds per side on the bigger vines. So when the Frontenac Gris were doing their best, that was about right for them. Now we've cut back since they are struggling.

Tyler Bertsch: So do you do two buds per spur or three buds per spur?

Kevin Kinzel: Two buds per spur. So about 14 spurs per side.

Tyler Bertsch: Have you ever tried pruning delayed, like pruning really late in the season, to see if that helps?

Kevin Kinzel: Yes, like this year, there are some of them that we haven't pruned yet, we're just waiting to see if they're actually going to break bud. A lot of times if they're looking dead, like they're not starting to push water, we'll just wait and see if they actually do break bud.

Tyler Bertsch: Did your Marquette not make it?

Kevin Kinzel: No. We had three vines that lasted about eight years, but we did put in, I think it was about 40 of them, and three of them made it for quite a while, but the rest usually about four years.

Tyler Bertsch: So with the Frontenac, Prairie Star, Brianna, and then the two NDSU varieties, what's the challenge of each one, do you think? Do you have a viticulture management thing where they're really vigorous or are you constantly having winter problems or bug problems?

Kevin Kinzel: Very seldom do we have bug problems. We really don't have no—the only thing we really have is the loss in the fall if we don't get them off in time. I think they all show the winter struggles.

Tyler Bertsch: Do you feel like the loamy soil at the bottom of the hill takes more winter damage or the ones at the top of the hill?

Kevin Kinzel: The ones at the top do. But like I said, the ones at the bottom are a little more protected. They're close to a tree row and then they're behind a barn/shed where the other ones are pretty well up in the open.

Tyler Bertsch: What about the canopy on the two NDSU varieties? You said the Primus is a little more bushy, right? A little more vigorous. Are those more vigorous than the Frontenac or less, do you think?

Kevin Kinzel: Less. Both of them are less. Radiant is way less.

Tyler Bertsch: I know you didn't have Petite Pearl for super long, but did you ever get one that made it through maturity? Because that would be a good comparison. That's like the cleanest canopy. I was wondering if Radiant was like that.

Kevin Kinzel: No, Petite Pearl, they're all suckering back. What vines we have, no old vines of them. Our oldest vines are Frontenacs.

Tyler Bertsch: What about your Prairie Star and your Brianna? Because they're somewhat related since they're Elmer Swenson varieties. What is their canopy like compared to Frontenac?

Kevin Kinzel: Everything right now is suckering back again, basically the Brianna and the Prairie Star. The only mature vines we have are the Frontenac and Frontenac Gris.

Tyler Bertsch: Have you ever tried any winter protection strategies like laying them down or burying them or putting tarps over them?

Kevin Kinzel: The one year we did put some straw around them, but that was it. We came to the conclusion that they have to be able to make it on their own or—it's a lot of labor. Not only doing it in the winter, but then getting it cleaned up in the spring.

Tyler Bertsch: Do you have any issues with wind pushing over your trellis? You have that nasty wind. Do you get a lot of problems where you have tangled shoots and trellises are falling down?

Kevin Kinzel: Not so much with the trellises falling down, every now and then you'll break a post or something.

Tyler Bertsch: Do you use wood or metal?

Kevin Kinzel: Wood. We tie off on the end. We've had the wood since 2012.

Tyler Bertsch: How about trunk diseases? You probably don't live long enough for you to see that, I suppose.

Kevin Kinzel: One of the things that happened that one year was the temperature drop split the trunks. It was on the Frontenac Gris and the Sabrevois. Those were the main ones. The Frontenac Gris was able to recover and the Sabrevois just couldn't. They didn't sucker back at all.

Tyler Bertsch: Do you ever have Crown Gall issues much?

Kevin Kinzel: We do some. The Frontenac Gris do get quite a bit of it. We just basically let it go; it's not that bad.

Tyler Bertsch: Do you ever have issues with berry splitting on these varieties around harvest?

Kevin Kinzel: We have had it on Brianna some, like after a big rain. The ones that are by the wedding area, when we water them, the sprinklers will do it.

Tyler Bertsch: What about pollination issues on any of these varieties?

Kevin Kinzel: No, I don't think we have a problem with that. I think the problem is presenting them with the flowers. We have the bees and the bugs around to do the pollinating, but we don't have them breaking the calyptra, the little top part of the cluster, the little flowers aren't breaking off. So what will happen is part of them will get pollinated and parts won't, but you will end up with different stages of grape growth happening at different times even on the same variety.

Tyler Bertsch: Prairie Star is one down here that we have had issues with pollination. I didn't know if you had seen that with that one as well.

Kevin Kinzel: Again, it's hard to tell when he's just suckering back. We spent more time trying to grow them than to pick them, that's for sure.

Tyler Bertsch: Have you had some really bad drought years? And did you notice any varieties that maybe handle it better than others?

Kevin Kinzel: When we put the vineyard in, we did not put any irrigation in. We just hand-watered them for the first year and then part of the next year, and after that we made them go find their own water. The thinking, the theory was that if they go down, the roots will be deeper, have a little more frost protection, make a more hardy vine. But did that really work? I'm not sure. Or was it just the lack of water part of their freezing off?

Tyler Bertsch: I've had growers water them in October to help them. People do that, and that seems to help them. They don't irrigate, but sometimes they'll go through if it's a dry late season; they'll come in in October and douse them before winter hits.

Tyler Bertsch: During the drought, did you notice any varieties perform better?

Kevin Kinzel: The Prairie Star and the Petite Pearl. The Petite Pearl was pretty vigorous in its first few years without any irrigation. Prairie Star's always a little slower, not as vigorous. But Brianna and Sabrevois, no, I don't really think that we did notice anything. Frontenac, they're right out of the gate they're going. Petite Pearl planted on that top, where it was sandier,

Tyler Bertsch:I would say in my vineyard, the clay area it seems to grow really slow, but the loamy to sandy parts seem to explode.

Kevin Kinzel: So there might be something to that, that's interesting. I don't think they really like heavy soil.

Tyler Bertsch: What about fungal diseases? Do you have any issues with fungal diseases?

Kevin Kinzel: None, not really. We have enough wind that it blows everything away. The water won't ever sit on the leaf because the wind will blow it right off. Doesn't have a chance.

Tyler Bertsch: And your annual precipitation is really low; you don't get a lot of rain in the period, is that right? No, not normally. Usually, a little in the spring, then it kind of shuts off until August, when people are starting to harvest crops. Do you ever fertilize, or have you just kind of left it since you started planting?

Kevin Kinzel: No, we use more of the generic fertilizers, either 19-19-19 or 10-10-10, and just give it a half cup. We did do a petiole test once that says we are low in almost everything, but we don't have anybody who has the right components to mix together to make what we need. We need almost like a specific vineyard fertilizer made for grapes.

Tyler Bertsch: What do you do for weed control?

Kevin Kinzel: Weed control, we started out with a weed badger, but we put a few of the vines too close together, so it was a pain getting down there. Then we just would try to keep it down with a weed eater, but now we went to spraying before the vines break bud. We use Roundup. Weed badger is an arm that goes on your tractor, and then it spins in a circle. It's got tines that go down, and they spin and tear the weeds out. It flips in and out to go around the vines and posts. It is kind of good, but the problem is it moves the dirt around all the time, so you end up with a ridge on the outside and a ridge by your vines.

Tyler Bertsch: What about birds? Do you have issues with birds? Do you net?

Kevin Kinzel: We use bird nets.

Tyler Bertsch: Do you notice the birds prefer a certain variety?

Kevin Kinzel: Yes, they really like the Haskaps best. But Brianna, I would say, is one of the birds' favorites. They're more aromatic, I think, the Brianna than the Frontenacs.

Tyler Bertsch: Have you been able to make wine from your Brianna? What are you getting for smell? Do you get pineapple like we do down here or is it different?

Kevin Kinzel: Yes, citrusy, pineapple, sometimes even kind of a little banana.

Tyler Bertsch: So you don't really have fungal issues, so you don't ever spray for fungal issues?

Kevin Kinzel: No.

Tyler Bertsch: Oh man, you're so lucky there.. What about deer? Do you have deer constantly go through and eat?

Kevin Kinzel: Occasionally, but not much, because there are houses around us, and a lot of them have dogs.

Tyler Bertsch: Raccoon problems at all?

Kevin Kinzel: No. Birds would be the biggest.

Tyler Bertsch: Out of the varieties we talked about—Dakota Primus, Radiant, the two Frontenacs, Prairie Star, and Brianna—which of those are you able to ripen reliably?

Kevin Kinzel: I'd say the Frontenacs would have to be the most dependable. But like I said, the North Dakota ones are too young to actually tell. I suppose you just get a lot of acidity on those Frontenacs. Frontenac Gris has got to be I think it's probably the most acidic of all the varieties that we usually use.

Tyler Bertsch: Do you think prairie wines can truly compete? Do you think they'll ever be able to compete at the level of what other regions are doing?

Kevin Kinzel: Well, I believe that the wines have improved a lot. Can you make a cold-climate grape compete with a California wine? Yes, you could, but you'd be taking most of the characteristics away from the grape, which wouldn't be a good thing. And will you ever change a California wine drinker's style? Very few of them. You can just tell the people that walk in and you get three words in, you tell them, "No, this is cold climate style," and you know they ain't going to like it.

Tyler Bertsch: What's kept you going through the bad years? Why do you still do this madness?

Kevin Kinzel: You either have to keep it a winery or change it into a butcher shop or something. You're invested in it, for one thing. And I think we do have the purpose to see the cold climate wine industry mature and advance. And I think the changes in the winemaking procedures is changing the wine as much as the grapes. Doing your cold macerations and extended skin contact.

Tyler Bertsch: Last question: What are you most proud of from your years of growing grapes?

Kevin Kinzel: The first conference we went to, there were probably 15-20 people there and they were taking sugar and adding it to the wine to see if it would improve it. Now we go to the conference, and we have a wine competition where you don't have to think about which one's drinkable, you have to think about which one is the best. That's a big shift.

Tyler Bertsch: Alright, well, I have no more questions. Thanks for the interview.

Kevin Kinzel: Thanks! I enjoyed it.