Henry Prokop Interview

Tyler Bertsch

This is Tyler Bertsch, and I'm here with Henry Prokop. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah.  

Tyler Bertsch

Give me the background of how you first got into growing grapes? 

Henry Prokop

In 2004  we were looking for sandy loam pasture that wasn't being utilized. You couldn't use it for row crops, so we were trying to find alternative things to maximize our acreage. And I spent a lot of time in San Diego and went to the AVAs out there, and really researched, photoed, took tours, whatnot, and tried to mimic some of the good practices that they're using out there, and what would work in the Midwest with the weather, birds, insects, humidity, a lot of the things that California doesn't have. And then I got a hold of Paul Reed and went to his office in probably 2005 or '06, met with him, and then my dad wanted to be part of the project, so he had time, because he's retired, and he kind of hung out with Steve Gamut at different locations when they would go around, and he would help UNL, down at Nebraska City and whatnot, with the viticulture program that UNL had because it was just starting to boom.

Tyler Bertsch

Right 

Henry Prokop

In Nebraska in the late '90s, people were getting involved. Andso yeah I just did a lot of research on the coast at trellis work and, and the different varieties, and then learned through trial and error and asking around which French-American hybrids would actually grow and what would sell. That was the other thing, too, is finding out what will wineries buy in volume.

So we tried to figure out what's the max amount of gallons per variety so that the wineries, instead of buying, you know, 25 different varieties on three acres with small batches, we tried to go with large batches. So basically, working with the university, doing what you're doing, reading books, researching. That's how we got started from 2004 to 2006. 

Tyler Bertsch

Gotcha. So the, your first vines went  in the ground in 2004? 

Henry Prokop

Yes. 

Henry Prokop

It was a staggered planning from '04 to '06, because when we started we wanted 12 acres. There's about 11 and some change, but we couldn't do it all at once because this is part-time. 

And then the ordering, building the trellis, and all that kind of stuff, so. 

Tyler Bertsch

Did people think you were crazy when you guys started growing grapes?- 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

Because back then, there wasn't much around for- 

Henry Prokop

No, there wasn't. The big concern is drift with the co-op, with farmers, and it really wasn't that big of a deal, as long as you're away from the roadways and ditches, that the state really sprays in the ditches. That was the issue. And once you get it registered on the no-spray list out of Milford they'll make sure that when they spray, it's not a big deal. 

Tyler Bertsch

So with that, were there any action steps people can take or things you would do for people getting started or that have an established vineyard that have this problem? What are some things you think they could do? 

Henry Prokop

Well, if they're getting started, one of the things we did was create 12-foot distance between rows. We looked at all different types of tractors, the width. In California, the rows are so close because they have manual labor plenty. And out here, you don't so you try to mechanize. So we spaced out our  vines during the planning and also the width of the rows to handle any type of ag equipment that we could get our hands on that would help out. Starting out, think of, the humidity in Nebraska, getting the vines, the cordon actually as high off the ground as you can. Um, in California, they have it super low, you know, and you go through and you bend over and handpick. And do you want mechanical harvesting? And if you don't have the money when you're starting out, develop your trellis in a way that mechanical harvest would work. Manual labor in Nebraska, you can't count on them. 

Tyler Bertsch

Right. 

Henry Prokop

With pruning think about being able to drive things up and down the rows, wind going underneath the cordons, the IPM, to dry out, so you don't have to use so many chemicals. Bird netting, having trailers and equipment and netting machines going down rows. 

Tyler Bertsch

So how high do you, how high do you recommend the trellis? 

Henry Prokop

Well, it depends. Are you doing VSP or are you doing- 

Tyler Bertsch

Let's say high cordon. 

Henry Prokop

I forget the notches, but for me, I'm 6'4", so I have it at shoulder width, so about five foot or so. I keep it as high as I can. Then you have drooping vines it's not a big deal. We tried VSP with the Nebraska winds but it was trial and error. And even if you have the wire, catch wires close or narrow, you think you're gonna tuck them in, but if you have a job, you don't have enough time, and if you have 10 acres, and the wind comes in, and they all get broken off it’s a big problem.

Tyler Bertsch

I can only imagine. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah, you can pick varietals that are drooping instead of upright growth, but you can really modify anything. So those are some of the trials and errors that we've brought from California. We went all steel. It was very expensive, but we have not had to replace one post in 20 years, whereas wood posts you hit it with a truck or the mower, or they start to rot out,, the wind. Think of the trellis work when you're doing your design or modifications. We also viewed the trellis as Legos, so if you do wood posts, that's it. Once you get it stapled in or whatnot, with the steel post, you can change, and that's trial by error is, is painful for, like, two years. We converted from VSP to high cordon.

Tyler Bertsch

You're lucky you had metal posts for that transition.

Henry Prokop

Yeah, so we had to cut and re-tie and all that kind of stuff. And it definitely helped out. So those are the things if you're starting out or you still got time yet, think about 20 years later on when you're in your fifties. I'm in my fifties and you can go mechanical if you have the money. But the trellis will be ready for it. 

Tyler Bertsch

How many acres do you think where the math starts to math a little bit, where you can make that pan out? Seven or eight acres? Is there a number generally you think machine costs pan out? 

Henry Prokop

I think around 12. We shot for 12. If you think my wife and two kids, and the kids go off to college, and then pretty soon you can't get volunteers to come to pick, and you gotta prune by yourself, think of the time management. I'm paring it down because my wife and I are going to start snowbirding here pretty soon. So we're just gonna go down to three acres of Petite Sirah, and that I can handle by myself easily while working. And then also, I already bought the mechanical equipment, and then the bird netting, I need help with that, but that's only putting it on and taking it off. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

So that what I would say for advice for, for new vineyards is labor-wise, as you get older, what can you do mechanically? And if you don't want to do mechanical because of your finances or whatnot, limit your vineyard to maybe five acres or less, so that you can handle it. And then also think in that vineyard. Are you going to grow a whole bunch of varieties? And then the wine- you have to go to the wineries and ask: What do you want? 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

Can I grow that? If they want a wine that, is diseased easily and it dies out, you got dieback, all that kind of stuff, but it makes great wine, and it's just a mess to prune. You have to come to a happy medium. And we chose big batches, so we try to do around 900 vines per batch, and then you lose twenty-five percent with netting or whatever it is, birds, and then you get a decent crop for them to put in the tanks, so they can blend or they can do standalone. 

Tyler Bertsch

So was Paul Reed and Steve Gamet the main avenues you guys used to learn, or was there anything unique, or is there something else in addition you would recommend? 

Henry Prokop

It was really researching, how to draft up plans out in California and just look at the, the watering system and whatnot.

Henry Prokop

Paul and Steve were great. They would do experiments, research and whatnot, this type of trellis versus that., The question is, do you want to do research on your vineyard, with trial and error, or do you want to planfor production to earn an income? And so Paul and Steve were great for that. We let them use our vineyard for their research graduate students. And then my dad, he would go around with Steve, and just do manual labor just to learn it. 

You know, tying, pruning, all that kind of stuff. It takes a while to do it right, so trial by error. But most of the research for our vineyard was done from copying, or reverse engineering the East and West Coasts, and then visiting with UNL, and the wineries, what they wanted to buy and what would grow, and the, the spray programs etc. 

Tyler Bertsch

What was the biggest things you learned? I know you said you went out from VSP to high cord. Was that the biggest takeaway or thing you would- 

Henry Prokop

For which, which phase.

Tyler Bertsch

When you started. What are some things maybe that you started out, you're like, "I probably wouldn't have done that," or...? 

Henry Prokop

I would've networked more with three to four wineries, and I would've interviewed them, and really: What do you want? What do you want to sell? What's your flavor variety that you like? And then try to come up with a happy medium, so that if one winery goes out of business or one’s tanks are full and sales are slow, and then this one winery needs more or whatnot, you have the variety that they all want. Then I would also research market demand. Have a general idea what is over and under planted.

Tyler Bertsch

Did you have any varieties that you regretted planting, they just didn't pan out or have a lot of winter damage? 

Henry Prokop

Prairie Star was phenomenal. It was phenomenal for about 10 years, and then it died out. 

Tyler Bertsch

Really? 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

That's interesting. 

Henry Prokop

And another thing, too. Be very careful who you buy vines from. I have had good luck with Winterhaven in Minnesota, and Northeastern Vine Supply in Vermont. There are other nurseries that I have had problems with. They're good. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah, I've used them, too. 

Tyler Bertsch

But, you know, that Prairie Star comment is what I'm looking for, because I've heard so many different little quirky things about different varieties like that, and that's so interesting. 

Henry Prokop

Well, like the Traminette, it can make really good wine. Back then, I guess everybody wanted it, but pruning, it's a mess. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

Prairie Star is just huge clusters. It was beautiful, and then all of a sudden... Did we do something wrong, or was the vine just so- such a new variety when it came out, that the dieback in just about 10 years, it kind of petered out? 

Tyler Bertsch

You don't think it was nutrients or anything? 

Henry Prokop

Could have been. It could have been. 

Tyler Bertsch

Because I know that Prairie Star is probably top five cold hardiest, I saw yesterday it was, hardy down to  -38F or something. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

It's pretty tough. . 

Henry Prokop

A cordon would go out, and it would just slowly- and then we asked around. So is it our fertilizing or our nutrient thing or is it the soil? But then the next variety, two feet away, ten feet away, 12 feet away, is doing just fine. 

Tyler Bertsch

That's weird. 

Henry Prokop

At the same time. So I don't have any empirical data to say, "I screwed up on this. If I would've done this, it would've lasted longer." I don't know, because everybody has a full-time job, and they're doing this part-time. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

We had Frontenac Gris and it was just wonderful to grow, and it's great wine. They'd send it out to the Coast. They loved it. But out here in Nebraska, the palates are sweeter….

Tyler Bertsch

Really? So you sold that on the Coast, but not in Nebraska? 

Henry Prokop

No, no. Like, you send the bottles to competitions. The winemaker would send the bottles out for awards.

Tyler Bertsch

And they do good out there? 

Henry Prokop

They do great. But they don't sell here. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah, but they loved it, in Florida and New York and all that kind of stuff. Our Marquette, she's won double gold on that. That's red, and then our Petite Perle they have, too. But the Frontenac Gris is great for blending, it's great for rosé, you know, all this kind of stuff. That's the feedback we get, so we planted too much Frontenac Gris because we couldn't sell it. 

Tyler Bertsch

Hmm. 

Henry Prokop

And so you just always interview the winemakers to build that relationship, so you know what's selling. And the only thing that hurt us in the early 2000s is there wasn't enough- there wasn't 40 years of wine sales in Nebraska to go off of. So the winemakers, in their defense, they're shooting from the hip. 

We were shooting from the hip too, and after about 20, 30 years, we're starting to right-size, I think. So anyway, it’s important to build relationships with two or three wineries, not to compete against them with price per ton.

That's one of the big things that a lot of these guys get wrapped around the axle, is, "I need X amount per pound," and "to break even," and we never did that. We just kind of built relationships and kind of ate it for a long time, and then it starts to pick up because they're like, "Okay, this is selling. We need more of this." And so it's just relationship building and research. Before you plant your vines.

Tyler Bertsch

Is there any other quirky things about any of the other varieties you grew? 

Henry Prokop

The Frontenac Gris is phenomenal. It just- 

Tyler Bertsch

Like, it grew really well? 

Henry Prokop

It grew well it just is awesome. But there's always a surplus on the websites, and the consumers either loved it or hated it. Marquette was great. It is very labor intensive, especially with the shoots. 

Tyler Bertsch

Do you grow that VSP or high cordon? 

Henry Prokop

Well, we started with VSP. 

Tyler Bertsch

That was the one you switched. 

Henry Prokop

Well, there's two. VSP, we started on that, and then after a while we had to switchwe tried box pruning, we tried a whole bunch of stuff. It's a vigorous vine, and it makes great wine. Marquette's really good but it's labor intensive. Then Prairie Star was huge growth for the first 10 years, and then it just kind of died out. Great wine. Everybody loved it. So maybe if I had a better nutrition plan for it, but nothing really changed those 10 years. It just seemed to like kind of go out. Petite Pearl is phenomenal. 

Tyler Bertsch

I grow that. I love it. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

I got a thousand vines of that, and that's and the canopy growth is manageable. 

Tyler Bertsch

Oh, yeah. 

Henry Prokop

And it's not all over the place where you're gonna go through. 

Tyler Bertsch

Makes good wine, too. 

Henry Prokop

Makes great wine. We haven't had the Crimson Pearl, but I'd like to try that. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah, that's one I'm considering. 

Henry Prokop

And everything that's out of that northeastern vine supply good stuff there. 

Tyler Bertsch

But I think, like you said, Marquette and Petite Pearl have gotten pushed the envelope a lot further than some of the old French hybrids.

Henry Prokop

Yeah, Jennifer does standalones and blends them, and they're just phenomenal. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah, I've had them. They're really good. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

So I probably drank your grapes!

Henry Prokop

Yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

They're good. 

Tyler Bertsch

Marquette, have you had troubles in heat? I've heard some people say they've had issues with heat. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah, it, it seems to go in spurts for like two or three years and then kind of a light crop in the 3rd or 4th year. But the heat wise, no, I haven't, I haven't seen anything with that. Um- 

Tyler Bertsch

When do you harvest that? 

Henry Prokop

Uh, Marquette is early. 

Tyler Bertsch

So it's like mid-August? 

Henry Prokop

Yeah mid-August. I should have brought my notes. Now, Petite Pearl, we're in September. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

With Petite Pearl I am more than happy to leave it on the vine for a while. At 23  or 24 Brix, it maxes out. With the whites and the Marquette, we were starting in August, and we were done before school started for us. So that's the third week of August, and we're about done. And then the other thing, too, is, other lessons learned is you can't avoid Japanese beetles. You better be ready. Have your, have your chemicals ordered from the co-op or wherever you get it, staged, your sprayer double-checked. Pumps go out, all that kind of stuff. And, you know, in two days, as soon as they spray the soybeans, they all move up into the grapes, and you got like a day or two before the tops of all your vines are all brown skeleton leaves because they're just munching away. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah, they're terrible. 

Henry Prokop

They are. And I wish I knew something better besides spraying on them, but there's- if you have a large vineyard, you're, you're just, you gotta be ready. 

Tyler Bertsch

Anything that works besides Seven? I know everybody uses Seven. 

Henry Prokop

Danitol. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. And then the other thing, too, is for integrated pest management, we customized a garden tractor, no mower on the bottom or anything, with the snowblower hydraulics in the front. We took that off, we put a boom, and so that we can drive down the rows and, and spray some vines underneath the rows. It was in a pasture before, so there was a lot of native hay. So if you got all this hay in the middle of your row growing up, and then that's just more closer for the bugs to get to it, and it stops the wind, all that kind of stuff. So how are you gonna manage underneath the rows without killing the vines, the decison or something like that, that just burns it? And then you got to keep your shoots off and all that kind of stuff, but it, it really depends on how labor intensive you want to go. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

The other thing, too, I would recommend is do you do the amount of feet that you need, um, with extra? Uh, because if the canopy growth- talking about bird netting, if the canopy growth is very vigorous, you know, it's gonna be pushed out, and if it's not so vigorous, it drapes on the ground. So figure out the width and how much bird netting you need, and have that stuff ordered. 

Tyler Bertsch

Do you just let it drape the net on the ground, or do you- 

Henry Prokop

We do 

Henry Prokop

Well, at first, we had a double crossarm on the Frontenac Gris because it's so vigorous. We had to use bread clips underneath and clip them. Because- 

Tyler Bertsch

Do you use Geneva Double Curtain? 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

Is that what you do? 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

Okay. 

Henry Prokop

But we couldn't sell the grapes, so I turned it into a single high cordon and cut it down, and still,, the sales just- they're selling it, but not at the high volume anymore. If I would have done, like, five hundred vines, it'd been fine, but we did like a thousand. Whereas I did a thousand of Marquette and then couldn't get enough of it, you know? And then the Prairie Star, same thing. So it's all going back to talking to the winery and say, "Over the next ten years, what variety do you need? How much?" 

Tyler Bertsch

So you grew, you grew Marquette, Prairie Star, Petite Pearl, Frontenac Gris. 

Henry Prokop

We tried Chambourcin.... um, and Chambourcin makes great wine. 

Tyler Bertsch

I haven't heard a lot of people in Nebraska have luck growing it.

Henry Prokop

No, it's better in a warmer climate, but we've had warm winters.- 

Henry Prokop

Yeah,  we tried Chambourcin. That didn't pan out. Um, what's the other variety that we had before? 

Henry Prokop

You got your Frontenac, and then your Frontenac Gris. Dechanac was big, made good wine, but it's too vigorous. So when we started, we already- we kind of intel gathered what did everybody have already, and if there was a great variety that we wanted and only one other grower had it, then we'd try to plant more. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

But there's a lot of winery vineyards that are, including me, downsizing. It's been 20, 30 years. My kids are going off to college, and we're gonna retire soon. So you lose your labor. 

Tyler Bertsch

Right. 

Henry Prokop

But... And that's why we're probably just gonna go down to, you know, three to five acres, something that I can manage, instead of trying to do the big stuff. 

Tyler Bertsch

Was there anything in particular you thought you changed or did to help the survival of the vines? I know we kind of talked about, getting ready for war with Japanese beetles. You changed the trellis on- 

Henry Prokop

Sending in your samples for nutrition and whatnot. 

Tyler Bertsch

You do that yearly or just when you see a problem? 

Henry Prokop

Every couple of years. 

Henry Prokop

Just think if you got five different sporting events every other day, and then you got weather, your job, and then you're rebuilding a farm, and there's just... If you have an, a smaller field that you can manage, and really be on top of, I think I would have done a better job. Then I was gone, and I'd come back, and then my dad, you know, he, he was just having fun out there, you know, working away  tying the vines off, getting them building the trellis. We built the trellis, but he'd maintain it. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

Drip irrigation is, is huge. 

Tyler Bertsch

You're on sandy loam, though, right? 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. We would deep water in the fall- and in the spring. Going back in time, the late 2008 to, like, 2014 was droughts. 

Tyler Bertsch

Oh, yeah, 2012 was terrible. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah, and then when you're starting the vines out its terrible Then once they get established, after about three to five years, and you want to stress the vine to get better grapes. But until you get them growing. If you lose 300 vines because they're just wilted out and dying of thirst that’s not a good outcome. So if you had drip irrigation, doesn't mean you have to use it, but when you need it, it's there. And we put a lot of effort into our drip lines and building the system, tied up nice and neat, you know, five feet below the frost pan below the ground and coming up and, really engineered it heavy. But yeah, there will be years you never use it, but when you need it to start up vines or in the fall to deep water, you'll have the water if you're going big. 

Tyler Bertsch

Is the topography of your land, is it sloped, or is it flat? 

Henry Prokop

Yeah, it's all runoff cow pasture that's all you could use it for. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

And so with our harvester, it was nice because you can adjust it as you go down the rows, and that's kind of why we did wider rows. It's all slopey. There's drainage in there and whatnot, and we fixed it all up. It's really nice, but you dont want a flat, fertile, perfect land. 

it's a little bit higher up and the great winds get in there and dry everything out. But yeah, I mean, here in Nebraska, you're, you're not gonna put a vineyard in the perfect gorund, where you're gonna plant corn. 

Tyler Bertsch

Did you notice anything peculiar as far as part of your vineyard seemed to grow really well, didn't matter what the variety was, or maybe you have cold damage in certain areas or a bug? 

Henry Prokop

Yes. Great question. 

Tyler Bertsch

Tell me about that. 

Henry Prokop

So there's a water draw that goes through the vineyard, between two pastures and then drains down into the creek bottom. We're a little bit higher up. So if I would've done it again, I would  pay attention, where is the fog sitting over the years, when there's no wind and all that kind of stuff. I wouldn't have planted those area. I just maximized a long eight acres and then fit it all in there because I needed space. I would've decided not to plant in some spots where there's drainage of air and wind on like a valley or whatnot, I wouldn't plant there. Where the fog just sat in there, and then you got mildew problems, and then you've got frost. So I would've changed it. even if it would've looked weird, I would've kept it out of the low spots. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

Um, what was the other part of that question? I was gonna say- 

Tyler Bertsch

Cold damage 

Henry Prokop

Yeah 

Tyler Bertsch

... so out of all these varieties, which ones got hit with it? 

Henry Prokop

See, now, that's a great question because-... we got burned no matter what the variety's on or on the low spots. So if I would've left, there was two ravines, if you ever go to our place, long pasture, two different locations. They're mixed up with the varieties, how they're planted, so I can't answer your question. I really think it is. If I would've kept any variety out of the low spots- 

Tyler Bertsch

They would've got smoked. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah, and then you're pruning. You know, if you prune, everybody wants to prune in January and February or March when they got the time, and it's kind of cold out, because May you're busy, and, you know, they're starting to bud break, but then you risk the chance of burning the spurs if you prune to early? So Nebraska weather is a challenge.

Well even if you do something wrong, and you know you're doing it wrong, but you have to because you look at the forecast, and all of May is just gonna be rain and whatever. You do what you can. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

So. 

Tyler Bertsch

I'm trying to see what else. Was there anything that you would see in the fall, maybe late downy mildew or something, signs that you were a little bit worried going into winter, where you're like: "Oh, man, I better do this, or I better- 

Henry Prokop

Well, yeah, if you get a little bit yellow on the leaves, and they're coming off and whatnot for potassium and, and, uh... I'm trying to think of all the things. 

Tyler Bertsch

You're saying they should be yellow or should not be yellow? 

Henry Prokop

No, like, if you're noticing the spots and whatnot. 

Tyler Bertsch

Oh. 

Henry Prokop

You got your IPM book, and you look at all the diseases in the fall, and then you got corn and soybeans and all that kind of stuff, and you're like: "Okay, I'm gonna get..." You know, you do the deep water. Is there trellis work I can do? Is there repairs in the cordons while there's still leaves on before they come off? Yeah, once we all got the grapes in, it seemed like life took over, and you just kind of forgot about the vineyard, and you work on it in the spring. Yeah, there's a, there's a million things you can do. You can test soil. If it's an upper eighty and you got a long vineyard going over, you know, it's sandy, then it's dark, then there's a hard pan, and there's, there's different types of soil. So if you had time to do soil samples  throughout the whole vineyard, you could adjust your running fertilizer through the irrigation or whatever. You can spot the problem spots. You know, that's what they're trying to do in precision ag now. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah, on top of the hill, I got some clay vines, and they're, you know, kind of babies, and the ones at the bottom, they're just they're just a jungle. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah, I'm saying- 

Tyler Bertsch

They got loam, and they're just loving life. 

Henry Prokop

Like our Petite Pearl, as it goes up the hill and it gets sandier, there's just less... They're not as vigorous as the ones at the bottom. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah, same as mine. 

Henry Prokop

At the bottom, you're always, you know, worried about frost damage.

Tyler Bertsch

I know a big year was February 2021. We had a -30F spell. I don't know if you remember that. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

For Nebraska, that's pretty rare. 

Henry Prokop

It cracked our irrigation lines. So- 

Tyler Bertsch

I was gonna ask you, what kind of damage happened from that? 

Tyler Bertsch

Any of the vines have trouble or? 

Henry Prokop

Well, the vines came back, because we didn't prune or anything like that till late. So we just kind of left them. But I do remember that was the one year out of twenty when we turned on the irrigation, it started bubbling up. So even below the ground, we buried it super deep, the PVC pipe. We had three-quarter inch off a two-inch main, five feet down. Um, even in certain spots, just kind of the ground we had to dig those out. But in regards to the vines they made it. 

Tyler Bertsch

Okay. Have you noticed any differences in years in bud break, or is it pretty consistent, do you feel like? 

Henry Prokop

Yes, its not consistent. Uh, you mean about the time that they break? 

Tyler Bertsch

Well, I mean, double question: Are some varieties more consistent, or are they all kind of volatile and is every year different, or are they consistent? 

Henry Prokop

The Frontenac Gris was always consistent. The Marquette was not consistent. Every three to five years, it was perfect for about three years, and then the fourth year, it was just kind of wimpy, and then it would, the next year it would be back to normal. 

Tyler Bertsch

You didn't notice, like, any overcropping or anything, like it tended to overcrop the year before or? 

Henry Prokop

Could've been. But you would think that for one year, and then the next year it would be fine. But if everything's the same for three to four years, and then the fifth year, it just kind of took a rest. I don't know, because there was no changes, the pruning or the bud count or spurs. So I just keep track of the Marquette. The Prairie Star, that we had VSP upright growers, so no changes there. That always seemed... It was just kind of dying out after ten years, so it could've been our nutrition, um, and/or the climate. And then the Petite Pearl, I've just loved it.. And I did notice it with the Marquette, but then again, the Marquette, we planted that in the lower parts of the field, that block. So I don't know. 

I don't know. If I had more time to do research, was it the cold and the, how low it was for the drainage of the cold air, or, and it screwed things up? Or did it rain when there were flowering, . Or, you know, your clusters didn't come out because it rained for, like, two weeks and, they just didn't set right. 

Tyler Bertsch

Another grower said that their Marquette seemed to start to ripen sooner as the years went on. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

That happened to you, too? 

Henry Prokop

Yeah, yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

Interesting. 

Henry Prokop

But we had some heat, and boy, it would cook. It would get- it would, it would turn... The brix would get there pretty fast. You had to keep track of that, go out there and take measurements. Whereas the Petite Pearl, we had the Marquette longer, so 2008, so we had it all over all those droughts. The Petite Pearl, over the last five years, no matter what, it's gonna be September. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

Usually want it. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah, we even did one year for fun, just to let it set a little bit longer, and the brix didn't change. 

Tyler Bertsch

Really? 

Henry Prokop

So like, yeah, it just, once it gets to, like, 24 brix, I didn't bring my notes with me, but it just kind of stopped. So we're like, "Okay, there's a sweet spot." 

Tyler Bertsch

Did you try wine from that? When you drew it out, was the wine quality different? 

Henry Prokop

Well, she's got all of our stuff in barrels and this and that, so we'll find out, you know. 

Tyler Bertsch

Oh, let me know how that goes- 

Henry Prokop

Yeah 

Tyler Bertsch

... because I've always been curious to- 

Henry Prokop

Yeah 

Tyler Bertsch

... a little experiment, and that I wouldn't have to run. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. I'd come home at key times  to build it and then get the vines in to grow for three years. And then, you know, you just, it takes a long time for them to get trained and established before you even get a crop. 

Tyler Bertsch

Right. 

Henry Prokop

And then you're like, "Oh, crap, I should have done this differently on the trellis," or whatever, or I didn't get the bird netting from Australia. It took a year to come in, you know.. Spectre Nursing is great. We love Spectre Nursing. They're a good s- a good company to buy supplies from. But,, yeah, it's just... Yeah, they're just remember, you know, if you're working full-time, you only got s- and if you're retired and, like, you know, 60-some, 65, and you got all the time in the world, you can go out there and really- 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

We, we manicured our stuff. It always looked great. Um, but that, there's a cost to that. 

Tyler Bertsch

Right. 

Henry Prokop

It's a lot of time and effort out there and money, um, and whatnot. But- 

Tyler Bertsch

Was there any  major diseases or pests you feel like you battled consisentently?... Did you ever have, like, grape flea beetle, or did you ever get apple twig borer or anything? 

Henry Prokop

No. 

Tyler Bertsch

I know everybody hates Japanese beetles. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah, that's- 

Tyler Bertsch

We know that's a given. 

Henry Prokop

That's the only thing we've ever had. I haven't- because of our trellis, it's so wide and high, um, we never had, uh, problems with insects except for the Japanese beetles. 

Henry Prokop

Now, we did, uh, it was low potassium in some years. We had powdery mildew a few times, but that was during the most rainy summers. And then, but when it's super dry, we haven't had- 

Tyler Bertsch

Do you ever have downy mildew problems? 

Henry Prokop

I think so. We had some bunch rot, too,

Tyler Bertsch

Oh, really? 

Henry Prokop

... twice over, um... I gotta look at my notes. It's been 20 years. But yeah, and that was only on the Marquette. 

Tyler Bertsch

Really? I've never heard that, Marquette- 

Henry Prokop

Yeah, they were mu- mummified. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

Um... 

Tyler Bertsch

What about black rot? 

Henry Prokop

And then the next year, they were fine. 

Tyler Bertsch

Oh, really? 

Henry Prokop

You know, so, um, and then we did a pre-emergent spray, and I think that helped out a little bit, too. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

What about black rot? Did you ever have problems with that? That seems like the tough one, uh, people struggle with. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

But you're by, you're kind of... Would you say southeastern Nebraska? I don't know how you'd phrase. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

Well, it's just 45 minutes southwest of Lincoln. 

Tyler Bertsch

Okay. 

Henry Prokop

You know, but we're pretty high on a hill, and so we got plenty of wind  except for those gullies, we get a lot of wind that comes through. 

Tyler Bertsch

One thing we got plentiful in Nebraska is wind. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah, the problems that we've always had was those rainy years. What was it, 2019? 

Tyler Bertsch

2020 was really rainy. 

Henry Prokop

We got the harvester stuck first time ever, because it was so just rainy and muddy, and, and you had to get the grapes out. Those are the years that we had the issues with, um, you know, mildew and the rot and stuff like that. And then the next year, it was fine because the climate, you know? 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. Does your harvester beat up the reds pretty bad, or you feel like- 

Henry Prokop

No. Well, you just gotta change settings, trial and error. You do a couple rows, and you figure out your RPMs, conveyor belt speed, all the shaker speed. And then, you know, we took notes off of what other people used, and then we just modified it to ours, just keep adjusting it. And, um, I got all my notes saved every year on, on the cab, and then you look at it, and you're like, "Okay, over the last five years, I've only had to adjust, you know, here or there." 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

And it also depends. The other thing, too, for your harvest is you have to harvest when the winery wants them and when they need them, and you're like, "Oh, it's getting the bug brix. They're starting to, um, shake off the vines 'cause they're overripe," you know, whatnot. 

So that's another thing. You gotta have a good relationship with the winery. Like, they don't want it on a Tuesday. They want it on a Sunday, in the afternoon, and you're like, "Uh," you know? 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

And then refrigeration. We used to have a Great Dane, 50-foot, reefer from Cisco, and so we were able to g- when we had to get volunteers, like 50 of them come in, and then we would all pick the grapes and get them in the  reefer because the winery can't take them all at once or whatever, and you want to keep them cold. 

But then once we got the harvester-... we pick as soon as it gets dark, we start at night when it's cool, no sun. We pick them all, get them weighed and loaded, and then at 6:00am in the morning- 

Tyler Bertsch

Off you go. 

Henry Prokop

Off we go. And so that's what I was saying about mechanical. You know, think about, you know, a harvester, it's not justified to have a harvester for three to five, eight acres. You can figure that out. But once you get above 10, you're- 

Tyler Bertsch

Ten, that's kind of the number I've heard- 

Henry Prokop

Yeah 

Tyler Bertsch

... where it starts to math out. Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

Was there any varieties that you felt you, you would get hit with, let's say, a spring frost, right, and it'd kill the primaries? Did you have some that didn't produce well on secondaries, or were they all kind of about the same crop load, or? 

Henry Prokop

It... We had a lot of Greenies. Um, I would say the Marquette. Um- 

Tyler Bertsch

Did the best or worst? 

Henry Prokop

Worst. Yeah, and I really think it's because of where we had them. So I couldn't tell you definitively. If I had them where the Frontenac Gris was or the Petite Pearl was on the hilltop, it might have been a different story. But as we planted, that was the next variety in line, and we kind of went down on the gully and came up, and on the tops they were good, and so if Frontenac Gris was at the bottom, it might have had the same issues as the Marquette. I don't know. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah.You said it was pasture before, right? 

Henry Prokop

It was prairie. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

It's usually what a lot of people do. It's like, "Can't use it for corn. What am I gonna do?" 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

I think that's any- everything I, I got on my list. Any other thing you can think of, tips, tricks, weird things?

Henry Prokop

Yeah, just travel. Go to different AVAs and,  look at, you know, Muscadine in the South. Go look at Virginia vineyards etc and,.......When you go on vacation with the family, just always throw in a winery. 

Tyler Bertsch

I do that. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. And everybody goes to taste, and I don't make wine, so I go right out to the vineyards, and I'm like, "What are they doing there?”

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

And you take notes and take notes, and after three or four years of reverse engineering other things, you're like: Oh, I could make wine on steroids and make it better. Um, yeah, always reverse engineer. Look at the irrigation. You know, everybody's end posts are coming in. You know, what angle and how big of anchors do you want in and how low? And, and, um, if you went with wood, that's great. But if you get a harvester and you custom cut, and you get a guy to come in and cut it for you, you know, will the wood post break? The bird caps on the top for the nettings, do they go in the harvester? How's everything tied up? Can it be- and if you don't have any intentions of doing mechanical harvesting because you want to keep... Then, you know, it's just- Well, I don't know. It's just, I always enjoyed researching other people's stuff in a complementary way and take a little bit from everyone. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah, Nebraska's in a weird place because, you know, we have the heat, but we get some of the fungus and the pests from out east. We get the wind and the cold from the North.

Henry Prokop

Yeah you know, with the brewery and the hops in Nebraska, too. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

You get diseases, too, that they don't have to deal with in other places and, no, it's just- and then birds, you just got to be ready. You know, everybody does the air cannons or the bird calls or whatever, but, you know, once you have a vineyard established for twenty years, the birds know it. And if you got bird netting and you got the family to get it on, get it on, and then go fluff them every week so the tendrils don't bind into it, or if you're draping, you know, and you got a mow still, you gotta be- you know, fluff them. It's a pain in the butt. 

Tyler Bertsch

You hit that with the blades. [chuckles] 

Henry Prokop

Well, that, but when it's time to take them up, they're not growing into the grass, and the tendrils aren't all going through it because the winery said, "I need another week," and you're like, "Okay," so bird netting is a necessary evil in my opinion. There's other ways to get around it. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

I've used the nets and the sound machine, they work. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

You know, to a degree. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

Um, and then also, some years, are you willing to- do you have enough volume that you can risk losing twenty percent to birds, you know, on the ends of the rows and still pick and still make a profit? 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. Is that a good number for you, you think, roughly? You usually lose about twenty percent? 

Henry Prokop

Not with the bird netting. 

Tyler Bertsch

Oh, okay. 

Henry Prokop

But, um, we've done it. We've experimented a couple of years and, you know, we had so much Frontenac Gris that we'd lose twenty-five percent to birds, the rest were untouched. It was beautiful. You know, it's like farmers spilling forward, you know? It's- 

Tyler Bertsch

You kind of know it's gonna happen. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. Is it worth the labor? 

Tyler Bertsch

Did you ever try- 

Henry Prokop

You know. 

Tyler Bertsch

Did you ever try any sprays or anything like that? 

Henry Prokop

Yes. 

Tyler Bertsch

Any novel things? 

Henry Prokop

We bought the organic spray out of Florida, where you would, drive by and spray and it, like, shimmers Florida. And it worked great until it rained. And then you're out there spraying again. You know, it's the Nebraska weather.... that's always what, you know how to make it perfect, and it's up to the, it's up to the weather. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

You know, so you just gotta deal with it. 

Tyler Bertsch

Did you net based upon veraison, or did you wait till certain Brix, or how did you know when to net? 

Henry Prokop

Oh, on, on the measurements. Yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

Okay. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. On when it was getting- when you know the birds are gonna start eating it. Uh- 

Tyler Bertsch

What Brix? Do you know off the top of your head, what Brix level they start eating it? 

Henry Prokop

Marquette, I thought it was 17 to 18, you know, when they start getting in there when they're red already, and then, you know, you're gonna pick it at 23, 22, 24 BRix, whatever the- 

Tyler Bertsch

Probably about the same for Petite Pearl, you think? 

Henry Prokop

Uh, yeah, our vineyard was so big. They were so used to the big vineyard, our Petite Pearl was separated, so they didn't get in there too bad. That's a good question, but we netted it anyway. Once, once it was getting up there in the high teens, and we're like, "Okay," but then again, got kids and sports and school. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

You're like, "I gotta get it on this weekend, even if it's-" 

Tyler Bertsch

It is what it is, yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

I guess I never asked anybody that. What would you do when they- people didn't want it? What did you do with it, the grapes? 

Henry Prokop

It hasn't happened to me. 

Tyler Bertsch

Do you still harvest? 

Henry Prokop

It hasn't happened to me yet, but, um, I was talking about before, all the marketing stuff that we go to on the meetings, same thing you do with, uh, cannabis and the seltzer drinks and the White Claws- 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah 

Henry Prokop

... and what's the palate of all the younger generation? What are they drinking? Are wine sales going down? You know, whiskey, beer is going down. Um, I need to start thinking about that. It's like, that's why you have two or three wineries that you can sell to fill in their gaps. I've taken, one crop of Marquette and split it into three before to sell it all, you know, because that's- they can only take so much. 

Tyler Bertsch

Right. 

Henry Prokop

And then the next year, they're all screaming for the whole thing. It all depends on how many customers did they get over the winter and all that. So yeah, it's, it's, um... But yeah, for your size, you can- that, that's awesome. That's easily manageable. Once you get, you know, 20 acres or 15, you gotta figure it out.

Tyler Bertsch

I was gonna ask you that. How did you find your harvester?

Henry Prokop

I can give you all the details later on, but there's a guy that custom cuts, just like combines for corn. He loads up all these harvesters, drives out semi-tractor trailers out to California, Texas, Oklahoma, and custom cuts, and then as when they get about four thousand, five thousand hours, he sells off the used ones, and it's perfect for small vineyards out here. So you pay a reasonable price- I would never buy anything new. 

Tyler Bertsch

Right. 

Henry Prokop

But, um, if it's in decent shape and, and whatnot, you can get 'em halfway decent, you know. You get one for a platinum F-250, you know, King Ranch or however they cost now- 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah 

Henry Prokop

So yeah. No, it's- everything- you got all the research at the university, and that's great, um, 'cause they have test plots and whatnot, and you're like, you know, "How can I make money off of this?" Eventually, you gotta ask yourself that. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

And it's not gonna be a lot, but if it can help. 

Tyler Bertsch

It's a good supplemental income. 

Henry Prokop

It's great. 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah. 

Henry Prokop

Then you have to, you know, take off your chemicals and all that kind of stuff, and if you don't have a lot of mechanical equipment, you can actually do pretty well once you got... And you're not doing bird netting. That was expensive. Um, but yeah. No, it's- I think the biggest takeaway is build that relationship with three to four wineries and, um, be prepared to, if you get a bumper crop, you know, and their, their tanks are still full, can you spread load three different sales to different people? 

Tyler Bertsch

Yeah, or make some jam. 

Henry Prokop

Yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

Lots of jam.

Henry Prokop

Yeah. 

Tyler Bertsch

All right. You wanna- you got anything else? 

Henry Prokop

Not that I can think of.

Tyler Bertsch

I think I... No, I think I hit all of it. Thanks again

Henry Prokop

No problem.