Greg Cook 4e Winery

Tyler: Just give me a background about why did you decide to do this? How did you get into growing grapes?

Greg: Insanity, partly. Well, I've been a home winemaker forever, for more than 30 years. And when I moved here in '96, none of these grapes existed. So I started making wines from choke cherries and rhubarb and all the other things that grow on the prairie. And I like drier wines, so most people make those country wines sweet as hell. But I made drier wines with them. So I had a lot of home winemaking experience doing that. But knew a lot about wine and then these grapes started appearing and we bought this property in 2012. At that time, a number of these grape varieties existed and were making good wines. So we decided to find a place to start a winery and the rest is history.

Tyler: Nice. So what are the varieties that you have on site?

Greg: Yeah, so I originally planted Petite Pearl, Marquette, Frontenac blanc, and Brianna because those were the varieties back in 2013, 2012 that were really...

Tyler: You said Frontenac blanc, Petite Pearl, Marquette, and Brianna?

Greg: Okay. Those were four varieties that I thought, two whites, two reds, we'd start with, that were doing pretty well here and people were starting to grow them and I like the flavors of those grapes, so that's what I started with. And the vineyard back there isn't very good because the soil has too much clay and the vines didn't really thrive in the back. So the only thing growing right now is Frontenac blanc, a little bit. And then the next year I planted the red Frontenac here and that's been doing great. So that's really hardy. I love that grape. It's very versatile.

Tyler: It's tough.

Greg: It's hardy. I've had some winter damage on them but even then they grow like crazy. So growing habit of those, you can crop them really heavy and they still ripen.

Tyler: Yeah, they don't care. They seem to not care.

Greg: No. And you don't need to prune off leaves or anything because the sun doesn't seem to affect ripening either hitting the grapes.

Tyler: We did studies in Nebraska and at NDSU. It seems like Harlene, she had done a study, one of her grad students and at Iowa State and other people that I know and it don't make any difference. The grape will do what it wants to do. So you just let it go.

Greg: And then making wine with it, I've come to learn that Frontenac is very sensitive to the growing year, so it tastes a little different every year, which is really cool to see different vintages.

Tyler: You get cherry flavors out of it?

Greg: We can get cherry flavors and then also depending on the vineyard they can be different. So my little vineyard here gets this little smoky herbal note to it that I've only tasted that smokiness from here. And then some other vineyards I make Frontenac from that I purchase grapes, more acidity. You can make a sweeter wine, some you can make a drier wine. If the year is really good and lots of sun, it makes an amazing wine. It can make a great Portuguese style port, a real traditional one. So I did that when I had really good Frontenac one year. So it's a versatile grape and hardy and it grows, so I'm happy with it.

Tyler: Yeah, in Nebraska we get cherry flavors on some of them too, which is unique. I notice all you guys keep the suckers for insurance. Do you let them grow all the way to the top? And this year, will you let them get to the top or how's that work?

Greg: So some of those I got to replace some cordons but you'll notice some of those vines have even three or four trunks up. And I grow usually two trunks for insurance but then if I can get a couple more and I even have, I lay down multiple things. So one of the things I'm still trying to figure out is what's best, is to do spur pruning or cane pruning. And so I actually do both on a lot of them. So I have spurs on the cordons and then I'll usually find a good cane and lay it down also because they can, because that grape can crop heavy and I seem to get much better results that way, more consistent.

Tyler: Yeah, and if you have dead spurs you can always...

Greg: Yes, exactly. And so I'm always leaving some because it's so vigorous.

Tyler: How many nodes? Well let me ask you this. How many spurs do you usually leave or is it just whatever is next, yeah, so you take what you get?

Greg: Yes.

Tyler: And you don't care how many... Do you try to shoot for two to three buds or whatever you get?

Greg: I usually shoot for two or three buds but then I do have them pretty dense. So again, because I don't have to worry about leaf thinning or anything else and they ripen well, I can just grow them like weeds.

Tyler: What's your winter kill like on them here? Like if let's say you have a normal winter, I know that's hard to say, but you have maybe I'm looking at, I don't know, 100 vines let's just guess.

Greg: Yeah, 70, about 70.

Tyler: 70. What would you say you get winter, like how many what percentage would get some big damage? Very few?

Greg: Very few. But I'll tell you in my experience, depends on how early the deep freeze comes because we did have a problem one year when it got 20 below in November. And it wasn't hardened off enough. And so that damaged them a lot. So that was one particular bad year when it got too cold too early. Usually if it's 20 below in January it's not a problem. Lately the last couple of years I've had damage because it got too warm in the winter. And so we'd have a January day where it was like 45 degrees and the next day it's 10 degrees. And that I think is damaging the trunks. So that I think climate change is actually affecting it more with the variability of the temperatures.

Tyler: I've been talking with Sean and Harlene about breeding grapes. That's one of the big things. In the past it seemed like they worried more about the ultimate low, but now it's more you got to worry about this.

Greg: Yeah, our grapes are fine with the lows now. We don't have any problem.

Tyler: It's the swinging that you got to worry about, the temperature swings.

Greg: Yeah, and I think mostly we're seeing damage on the trunks because it's affecting the whole vine.

Tyler: So you pretty much just have Frontenac?

Greg: Yes.

Tyler: Okay, the other ones you don't really harvest much off of?

Greg: Well, I've actually got a pretty good amount, maybe 30 vines or so of Frontenac blanc that are actually growing after 10 years. 10 years. I still see some of the little Marquette and Petite Pearl. They die to the ground every single year back there and I just could never get those, I never got those vines to thrive.

Tyler: I was going to ask you, I figured all these never made it right, besides the Front blanc?

Greg: Yeah, and it's something with the soil there, I think that's it.

Tyler: Well, I'd be surprised, everyone else that tried Brianna it seemed like it didn't work up here.

Greg: I have a few, like two or three Brianna vines that are growing really well.

Tyler: Really? How many did you originally plant?

Greg: I planted 75 of each variety and 100 Petite Pearl.

Tyler: Okay, so you did take some damage then. The three of them made it.

Greg: Yeah.

Tyler: Nice. Yeah, it makes such a good wine too. Kind of a bummer you can't have more.

Greg: Actually I've been getting Brianna from Nebraska.

Tyler: Really?

Greg: Yeah.

Tyler: Gotcha. Did you get it from Gary? Gary Thompson?

Greg: Old Cellar, yeah. He was shipping a lot to you guys up here. I learned that, yeah. He's out of the game now, he just retired. What mistakes do you feel like you made early on that you would tell a new person to look out for or... Maybe variety selection?

Greg: I think variety selection is key and your site. You have to know your site. With the winds, actually I have never, I've only in 10 years, I planted that in 2013 so 12 years, I've only sprayed it once.

Tyler: That's awesome.

Greg: And I have very very little disease because the winds, it gets a lot of airflow. So finding the right site where you get good sunlight and good airflow and you have good soil.

Tyler: Do you notice more winter damage on the less protected stuff over there from the winds?

Greg: Well, it's hard to say because there are other problems with that part with the soil is.

Tyler: Yeah, the soil is... And I didn't know if you had delayed bud break because I've now had a few growers tell me that the windward side of their vineyards get hit. The shoots seem to take longer to develop. Like the vine is a little more cautious.

Greg: Oh, interesting.

Tyler: You have such a quaint, cool little area.

Greg: Thank you, yeah, we love it.

Tyler: When I pulled in I was just like that view is about as good as it gets. For a flat landscape you're like what am I going to see, but that's just such a pretty view. It's just wide open.

Greg: There's a water channel that runs through the back and out there is mostly natural prairie. We have some paths mowed out there so people can walk.

Tyler: That's so cool. Did you ever have any bad drought years?

Greg: I don't have to worry about drought because of all the clay in the soil. Even in the driest years. I think I've only, I watered them when I planted them. And then I think one year I watered just a little bit just because I was worried but I don't think I would have to worry.

Tyler: And when do they ripen usually, like mid-September?

Greg: Mid-September for the Frontenac.

Tyler: Any trunk diseases you can tell from that isn't due to winter damage?

Greg: I don't know because I'm not sure, I don't know enough to know what they are. But I don't see like the galls or anything like that. So I haven't seen those kinds of diseases.

Tyler: One thing you could do is if you do get winter kill, use it like a cadaver. You can go cut it open, look inside the pith, see if it's got little Eutypa. That's something you could look for. Herbicide drift?

Greg: Oh, it's the worst. North Dakota is very windy, so I always get to see some every year early on. I think when people didn't know as much know that we were here and we got more problems. But yeah, I see a little bit every year.

Tyler: Not enough to hurt them though? Some growers say just talk to your neighbors and get registered with the Department of Ag or something.

Greg: Oh yes, absolutely. Everyone should do that.

Tyler: Any pollination issues on the varieties you have?

Greg: Never had any problems.

Tyler: I wouldn't think so with the varieties that you have, since they're all self-pollinating. Do you ever see any cues that tell you, you know what, I know I'm going to take winter damage, meaning they're not hardening off or they're overcropping to where you're like oh they look vulnerable or the leaves look a certain way? You notice anything like that going into winter that makes you a little nervous?

Greg: Going into winter, I think if like on some of them I noticed that last year I had really poor really small growth and I think because of the trunk was damaged from that those warming and cooling. They looked like it wasn't going to do well this year and those are still not doing well this year. So I don't know if that's specifically for the things you were asking about but I can see some. But most of the time these are really healthy. They look good. I did use a little fertilizer this year, 10-10-10 I threw on it and it does seem to do better there. The soil is pretty rich anyway.

Tyler: Looks like you don't use herbicide. It looks really nice and clean. So you must mow around that, yeah. No sprays around that. And that was the first time you used fertilizer in their life?

Greg: Second time. And these are 12 years now in the ground.

Tyler: You notice a big difference after you did it?

Greg: I do notice they're growing after I did that, yes. Because the first several years I think they were lots of very rich rich soil and they were growing really well and then for a couple of years I was noticing the growth was much less and they weren't quite as vigorous. And I thought well maybe it's time to start throwing down some fertilizer. And so I did two years ago and I got a big rebound. And then last year I didn't fertilize and they were growing pretty good but still not as quite as the year before so I threw some down this year, just a little.

Tyler: Do you ever get like a spring frost that takes out the primaries?

Greg: I have only had that problem twice in 12 years. Because I think Frontenac is it's not too early bud break.

Tyler: Yeah, it's in the middle if I remember right.

Greg: And I do do a little bit of insurance so I don't prune them all the way back before they start, I wait until the buds swell before I prune off the last... And sometimes I'm even pruning a little bit late anyway so...

Tyler: Yeah, other growers have been saying that as well. You guys use all the tools in the repertoire to... I don't blame you.

Greg: But otherwise I'm lucky because I don't in terms of maintenance of this vineyard it's really not that bad and I don't have to spray anything.

Tyler: Now on their secondary buds do you remember how fruitful they were percentage wise? Everybody always says 50% but did you notice was it you think it was 50? Because each variety I'm trying to drill down on how because they're different.

Greg: Yeah, I haven't paid a lot of attention.

Tyler: And it happens so rare to people that they usually don't remember.

Greg: Well, I'm trying to think because oftentimes I get the secondary buds pushing anyway with the primary buds.

Tyler: Really?

Greg: Yeah, I mean sometimes you're seeing both. With Frontenac it's again Frontenac's so vigorous. And yeah I would say that's they usually would have one cluster as opposed to two or three.

Tyler: What about petiole testing, leaf testing? You do any of that yet?

Greg: I haven't done any yet. I don't know that I need to.

Tyler: Now as far as pests, everyone has so far talked about the little ladybug, Asian beetle. You got a problem with that?

Greg: Oh the Asian beetles, yes. Last year was a nightmare. It was a beetle apocalypse. And they hide in the inside all winter too and then they come out in the spring they were everywhere inside the house.

Tyler: So did you hand pick them off or did you put the clusters in water?

Greg: Everything was washed in barrels of water. I washed and all the grapes I got too, it probably took what usually is 10 minutes of crushing took us six, eight hours of washing.

Tyler: So if I figure out a way to solve that problem you guys will all pay me a lot of money. Because all these stupid soybeans.

Greg: Yeah, the soybeans once they're harvested they just come pouring in. But last year it was like in one day they just all came out.

Tyler: Do you okay, I was going to ask you about that. What day in September? Other people gave me a day so I want to see if you got it written down.

Greg: I can tell you when I harvested because it was that week that they came out. It was third week of September or something like that.

Tyler: People said 15th to 17th.

Greg: Yeah, somewhere in the middle. They came out and then I it was about a week after that that I harvested. Because they were being eaten. I don't know why they don't usually eat the grapes unless maybe something is...The problem with those stupid Asian beetles is they taste bad. And so it only takes a few beetles to taint like a pound of grapes. And even if you could kill them, even if you could spray something to kill them, they're still inside the cluster so when you crush them they're still in there. I don't have much other pest problems like I've never seen Japanese beetles here. I saw a couple in town in Fargo last year but none here. I hope they just can't survive the cold.

Tyler: What about raccoons, pulling clusters? You ever problems with raccoons?

Greg: I haven't had a problem with raccoons.

Tyler: Deer?

Greg: No, deer don't bother me and I don't have them fenced. I don't know why. There's some deer around but and I've they've even walked through and stuff but they don't bother. I did have a beaver gnaw one off once.

Tyler: No kidding.

Greg: There's a beaver over there now this year again they set up home and I'm like no, go away.

Tyler: What about bird netting, you net?

Greg: I bird net, yeah. I wouldn't have a grape if I didn't.

Tyler: Do you do anything else besides netting to prevent birds?

Greg: No.

Tyler: Is there a brix level where you start to see the birds really start to hammer down?

Greg: Yes, I think when the brix are over 20 they'll probably even a little before that. I think once they go through veraison it's usually still okay and then once they really start to get their full color I think.

Tyler: So if someone was planning their first vineyard today what kind of advice would you give them?

Greg: Plan well. Plan and talk to other growers. Go visit vineyards and see how they do it. Because and everyone does things differently. And so find out what way would work best for you, not just doing a vineyard. I think that's important.

Tyler: Do you think our prairie wines can truly compete with other regions?

Greg: Yes. We have unique flavors. definitely is you don't get this kind of flavor in the other regions and that's we can sell that too. People are interested in local.

We got to get the winemakers to stop thinking about winemaking like you make Vinifera because these are unique grapes. And that's what I've found successful is listening to the grape. Not trying to force it into a California style because our grapes don't like that.

Tyler: What kept you going through the rough years, you know, if you had a bad year, what kept you going? What has interested you all this long doing it?

Greg: I think mostly the delight in people when they learn about these grapes and the wines they can make. That's the fun part.

Tyler: It's cool to see the light bulb come on. You grow grapes here in North Dakota? Yeah, when I told people I was going up here they're North Dakota? They barely even know they grow in Nebraska. But you know you guys are growing, you're where we were at a few years ago when you're making your way. It's cool, you'll have your own, I know Harlene talked about a Dakota Primus and Radiant and I know Sean's working on some and then Point of View, that gentleman's working on some. You guys will have your own cultivars and hopefully we can take some of them too and steal them from you.

Greg: There's some really good test reds also in their vineyard I hope they get developed at NDSU. Harlene's got some nice test ones in there that would be good. Crimson Pearl's one of my favorite grapes too, I like that grape a lot. I like it better than Petite Pearl, it's one of Tom Plocher's grapes.

Tyler: Sounds like it's kind of the champion everyone keeps saying the praises of Crimson Pearl.

What are you most proud of after doing this for?

Greg: That we're still alive after 12 years open, 11 years open. Most businesses fail.

Tyler: Right, not even just wine, just in general. I don't know what the percentage is but it's pretty high. It's like 75, 80 something like that. I don't have any other questions, honestly. Oh, one thing was wasps. Do you have problems with wasps?

Greg: Occasionally I have had wasps, but what I see most is not so much in my Frontenac, but they hit the white Frontenac blanc out back.

Tyler: Oh yeah. They like white grapes.

Greg: I think so. Itasca's one other growers have said that they pick on. I have a wasp problem in my vineyard so that's not good to know they love Itasca because it's just now starting to really turn and burn. All right, I got nothing else. I appreciate it.

Greg: No problem.