Bob Grosz Dakota Vines Vineyard & Winery

Tyler Bertsch: Bob, do you want to go ahead and give a brief intro into how you got started growing grapes?

Bob Grosz: Sure. We purchased this land about nine years ago. Before that, my wife and I were in education. We loved wine and made wine at home for a long time, starting from a kit to getting grapes flown in from Washington. We set up a room and had a small winery in my house, sharing it with friends and so on.

Tyler Bertsch: Riesling?

Bob Grosz: I made a lot of Merlot and a lot of Cab. I did one Riesling. It was just fun to expand from the start to there. So then from there, my kids grew, and they all left the house, so we thought, "Okay, what are we going to do as we think towards retirement?" Before we bought this place, I actually went back through the VESTA program and started earning a degree in oenology. I took courses from UC Davis, Missouri State, and a little community college up in Brainerd, Minnesota. That's kind of where we are. With the winery, like I said earlier, I know a little bit more about making wine than I do growing grapes, but I certainly wanted to be able to have an estate wine that I grew and so on myself. My son, who lives in Minneapolis and is also a teacher, comes back probably two times a month, spends a weekend, and he does a lot of the work out in the vineyard for us.

Tyler Bertsch: That’s nice.

Bob Grosz: Yeah, so that’s that. He’ll be here again today. That’s where I’m at.

Tyler Bertsch: So what was it before you planted?

Bob Grosz: This was a soybean field. In fact, the year we bought it, we had to take out some of the soybeans so we could come in here and put in the fill. I had an agreement with the person who originally owned it that we would pay for the soybeans that we destroyed because he wanted to at least make some profit for his crop that he had here. Then we built the original building that we're sitting in today, the tasting room and then the winery with a little apartment upstairs. Little by little, we continued to add. We actually didn’t start planting the grapes until year two. So the building was up first.

Tyler Bertsch: And what year was that?

Bob Grosz: I think it was 2019.

Tyler Bertsch: What did you plant first?

Bob Grosz: Itasca and Crimson Pearl.

Tyler Bertsch: They've been good to you?

Bob Grosz: The Itasca, if you look out at the vineyard, is growing like crazy out there. They are really bushy. The Crimson, they’re struggling, but they’re coming. I don’t know if it’s what I’m doing, but what I think is, back in 2007, there was a flood that happened in this area. The person who owned the land agreed to have people go out there and dig up the clay to build a dike because we have the Wild Rice River over there. I don’t know what they filled in in that location. I think I have two different unique soil structures out there.

Tyler Bertsch: What soil type, generally, is it?

Bob Grosz: It’s a loamy clay type soil. This year, I’m going to work with NDSU and do some core samples out there and see what else I can do. Certainly, I’ve fertilized and done a lot of those things, but that’s just on intuition. I need to get the data as we go through it. That’s one thing I’ve been researching: what is the best way to clear some of that groundcover around there.

Tyler Bertsch: So were there any mistakes you made early on that you thought, "I wish I would have known that," when you were new to this?

Bob Grosz: Out in the vineyard, I thought it needs to look like a vineyard, plus I don’t want open soil out there, so I spread grass seed over the whole thing. I think the vines are competing against that, and I have grass all the way in between my rows. I wish I would have been a little bit more judicious underneath. I wish I would have either laid fabric or was very careful not to throw the grass seed in that area. It would have been easier to keep up with it. So I have to figure this out.

Tyler Bertsch: One thing you could do if you want a low-maintenance grass—I don’t know how much you’re mowing—but red fescue would be okay in between the rows. But do not put it underneath the rows because it will be worse than regular grass. But for low maintenance, you can mow it a lot less. Being in North Dakota, do you have a lot of winter kill issues with these young vines, or have they been pretty good to you?

Bob Grosz: So far, we have a thousand out there that we planted.

Tyler Bertsch: So about an acre and a half?

Bob Grosz: Yeah. This year, I think I had four total that were—I mean, they’re growing back up from the bottom up again. On average, probably only one or two. So we’ve had pretty good luck here. I don’t know if it’s just—we have a lot of natural protection, I think, from the wind and so on. The only place that I’ve struggled is there’s a lower area in the vineyard and I just wonder if it's a frost pocket. That’s where we’re getting it.

Tyler Bertsch: Well, you do have good or bad. The good is the shelter keeps the wind desiccation away, which is good. It seems like the North Dakota growers I talk to don’t have the disease pressure with the fungal disease pressure as bad up here because of lower rainfall. So that’s good that you have the breaks that you do with all the trees.

Bob Grosz: We’re pretty well protected here. So I haven’t had that much dieback, which has been a good thing.

Tyler Bertsch: So you have Itasca, Crimson Pearl, what else?

Bob Grosz: From there, I did King of the North and Frontenac Blanc.

Tyler Bertsch: Which ones do you have dieback on?

Bob Grosz: It’s been my Crimson.

Tyler Bertsch: Really? Yeah, when I think about it, that probably—which is insane to think that’s such a tough vine—but King of the North is really tough, Itasca, Frontenac Blanc, those are all really tough. But you don’t get a lot with Crimson Pearl?

Bob Grosz: Not a lot of dieback. Like I said, out of a thousand vines, I think there were four this year.

Tyler Bertsch: Oh, okay. That's good. And they were all Crimson?

Bob Grosz: All Crimson. And again, I think it’s in that little pocket because that’s where they were growing.

Tyler Bertsch: What was the biggest surprise when you started growing grapes? Something that you just didn’t expect?

Bob Grosz: Wasps. To be very honest. Yeah. So I switched just this year, I purchased B nets instead of just bird nets, to hopefully help that piece. But I see it, I think it’s almost cyclical because one year they were crazy, last year not so bad. But it was just a unique experience that, especially the Itasca, which needs to be picked in a very short amount of time, if I didn’t get out there in time, those wasps knew it and they were breaking that little seal on the grape somehow and it was interesting.

Tyler Bertsch: So you're going the netting route?

Bob Grosz: Yep. I’m going to do B nets this year, so very fine netting.

Tyler Bertsch: Now with Japanese beetles, that’s something you guys don’t have as much pressure with.

Bob Grosz: The Asian Beetles are crazy.

Tyler Bertsch: Well, I’m talking about—so not the ladybug ones. I’m talking about the Japanese beetles. These look like the big crunchy beetles. You guys don't get those. So they say with them, the traps sometimes are bad because they'll bring them in and they release a pheromone so then they swarm it. Wasps, I don't think are that way; I'll have to do more research on that. So you can get away with putting traps—you can get them at TSC—but they’re just little plastic jugs and you pour the powder and water in them.

Bob Grosz: How about birds, then, if you don't net yours?

Tyler Bertsch: I do net for birds. Yeah. And they love, when brix gets—for me it’s like 14 or 12, somewhere in there they can—they know. It’s a good segue into the pests. So what do you do? Do you have any tried and true methods on the little ladybug, the Asian beetles?

Bob Grosz: Actually, last year was probably the worst. Before that, it wasn’t too bad. And sometimes it depends upon what my neighbors are planting around me.

Tyler Bertsch: Beans, you’re going to get it worse.

Bob Grosz: Yes. Those seasons were terrible. And last year was the first time I actually turned away some grapes from a grower because they were just infested with the beetles. I just felt bad, but he understood too that we had a contract in hand and he did not provide what he said he was going to provide. So I don't know a spray pattern, but I know some of the other growers around here are trying to come up with something that potentially could help with that, but I personally have not done that.

Tyler Bertsch: I would—that would be where I would go, is if you can talk to your neighbors and see, maybe they could do. This is just an idea. And say, "Hey look, right before you harvest," or whatever the chemical says is appropriate for them to do, maybe do an insecticide to kill them boogers so you’re going to get some. But other growers have put them in water, like their clusters in water, which—there’s some downsides to that, which you know. But if you could dunk them in there for maybe a little bit before the water really—get them out and dehydrate them—I don't know.

Tyler Bertsch: Are they all high-wire?

Bob Grosz: They are. Right or wrong.

Tyler Bertsch: No, I think that's good. I think for all of them that's the best from what I know. How many buds—so you have your cordons—how many spurs do you usually leave?

Bob Grosz: I don’t really count them, but I keep them about a fist apart as I go down the vine. So I’d have to go back and count them, but that’s my way of pruning them.

Tyler Bertsch: Do you go till the cordons of the two different plants touch pretty much?

Bob Grosz: Yes. And then take them off, and then it’s basically a hand apart.

Tyler Bertsch: Gotcha. Have you had any disease issues on any of these varieties?

Bob Grosz: Knocking on wood right here, I have not.

Tyler Bertsch: What about any phylloxera, like in the leaves, foliar?

Bob Grosz: Just starting. Yes.

Tyler Bertsch: Which ones?

Bob Grosz: It appeared on the Frontenac Blanc.

Tyler Bertsch: That would be the probably the most susceptible, I would imagine.

Bob Grosz: And talking with Sean Ballinger up at Bear Creek—and I think you're going to talk with him—he is trying to talk me through—his knowledge out there is much larger than mine about what I could potentially spray. But I have not done that yet.

Tyler Bertsch: I think with the climate up here, you don’t have the fungal pressure as bad. You can probably mitigate those ladybugs through working with other people. Foliar phylloxera, you can probably do some things to prevent that. And you can use—there’s organic sprays that are really soft on humans and they’re made for certified organic operations, and you can use those and it’ll keep them at bay. And if you don’t want to use an herbicide, the ground cover would be good. That would be the way to go.

Bob Grosz: So would you put them just around the vines themselves or would you go all the way down the rows with the ground cover?

Tyler Bertsch: Just underneath. But would you go down the entire row of vines or would you put maybe a four-foot tarp and so on? I’d go down the whole thing. Just for making it easy, you basically cut a slit, tie it around, staple it down.

Bob Grosz: Okay.

Tyler Bertsch: Have you had any wind issues? Like winter kill from high winds or delayed shoots?.

Bob Grosz: Not really, when it comes to that. It’s just the nuisance of having them all taped up and ready to roll, and then the wind comes through and you have to go do it again. So that’s my only problem with wind. And that’s why I have a son who comes and does that for us.

Tyler Bertsch: You said you tape them up on the wire?

Bob Grosz: Did, yeah. Just to keep them up there.

Tyler Bertsch: You use like a green tape?

Bob Grosz: Yes. Like a Velcro. Those are pretty good. They work pretty well.

Tyler Bertsch: I would say if you're in a heavier wind area—I use them because I can get some nasty wind—they're like tree interlock things, and they're tough. But they're more laborious, like you're going to cut them and do all that. This is a lot quicker. But I don't think you got the wind as bad. These are probably too young for—you're not seeing any trunk diseases, I'm sure.

Bob Grosz: I have not.

Tyler Bertsch: Pollination issues? Do you have any pollination issues where the berries are maybe like—half of them are pollinated and the clusters are kind of loose looking?

Bob Grosz: That’s a good question. I’ve never looked for that, so I—but the clusters usually look pretty full.

Tyler Bertsch:  I would think on those varieties it wouldn’t be so bad. What about herbicide drift? Do you get hit with that often?

Bob Grosz: So I know the three people right around me very well and they are very careful when they do spray. In fact, they’ll only do it at certain times, wind’s at a certain speed and so on. So they’ve been very good to me. I think partially is this land was—the gentleman who lives across the river, he farms that part over there. He’s actually growing grapes for me over there as well. So he has Itasca and Frontenac planted over there for me. The gentleman across, member of our wine club, so he wants to be very careful as well. Great person. And then this one is cash-rented, but I know them very well and we just talk.

Tyler Bertsch: That’s the best way to do it. Did you ever have a spring frost where you lost the primary buds?

Bob Grosz: I think it was three years ago, because then the yield was terrible.

Tyler Bertsch: Did you by chance know ballpark percentage on what yield reduction you think you got?

Bob Grosz: See my problem is they were so young and where they’re at in that cycle, I didn't know what would be a reasonable amount to lose, so I don't think I can give you data on that one.

Tyler Bertsch: That’s okay. You said your Itasca has established really well. What about your Frontenac Blanc?

Bob Grosz: That’s the newest because I did this in stages.. So the Frontenac Blanc is only three years old. Still kind of a baby. But it seems to be doing okay. They’re up on the high wire and bloom has happened and so things are good.

Tyler Bertsch: Did you ever have some really drought—problems where you just didn’t get the rainfall you needed when they were establishing?

Bob Grosz: Not really. In my mind—I don’t know if this is right or wrong—being right by the river, we have a pretty high water table and I think those roots are going down pretty deep to find it. So they’ve done a nice job so far.

Tyler Bertsch: And you said you have loamy clay, which really helps. It holds water; it’s great for that. You ever have pooling water, though, to where it’s like almost the reverse where it’s too bad when you get heavy rain and it just sits?

Bob Grosz: Not heavy rain. We have had, before the actual—during the thaw, we have had water up on about a third of the vineyard just because of the river that’s right there and as it fills in. It didn’t appear to have any negative effect on it.

Tyler Bertsch: It won’t if the buds have not burst, really. They’ll put up with a lot. They say wet feet, wet feet, but if they’re dormant, they kind of just don’t care.

Bob Grosz: And that year they were dormant.

Tyler Bertsch: Does it flood often or just kind of a winter thing?

Bob Grosz: Just a winter thing. Just during the thaw. Probably some of the other people you’re going to be talking to further to the north of here, because of that there’s a huge diversion that’s coming through and it’ll be completed next year. So that is really to protect the city of Fargo because on average, we probably get about every five to seven years a very major flood. Really? In fact, like I said, one time before we owned it, they took the clay out of here to build a dike to help protect part of it. The city of Fargo has done that numerous times, and in my job as the Associate Superintendent, we’ve actually had our high schools and middle schools—we basically have cancelled school and allowed kids to go out and sandbag. It gets to that point. So at one time, I would say probably, and not kidding, the kids of the Fargo Public Schools probably saved the city of Fargo by laying as many sandbags as they did.

Tyler Bertsch: That’s cool. I mean, not cool, but cool. Because it came out on the good end and just for them to give back to the community was amazing. I did—maybe I cut you off, but did you ever tell me what you do about the beetles? Do you pick them off or how do you do that, deal with the little ladybug?

Bob Grosz: We haven’t had it as bad as some of my other friends. So there I’ve just, as I pick, I’m very careful what goes in the bucket and comes up to the winery. And sometimes I’ve had to actually not even pick a cluster or two because they were so infested.

Tyler Bertsch: Oh man. What time frame are you harvesting like Crimson Pearl and Itasca?

Bob Grosz: I’d have to look at my notes, but it’s probably like mid-to-late September. Yes. Once they harvest those beans, and by that time the beans are off the other fields and they're looking for something else.

Tyler Bertsch: So they’re probably too young for that—I was always going to ask about deer, but it’s pretty obvious you got a big deer fence out there, so that took care of that for the most part, right?

Bob Grosz: Yeah. I’m surprised you didn’t see any deer come through my parking lot today. I see them all the time. Oh yeah. Especially when you’re in a riparian zone where you got the river and trees, you’re going to get eaten alive. But once we put that up, I haven’t had any problem with that.

Tyler Bertsch: Does it keep coons out too or do they climb it and go down or?

Bob Grosz: I don’t have a lot of coons out here. I have rabbits, and they have found their way underneath. But now that they are up high and there’s nothing really for them to eat—did they ever eat when they were low? Yes. They loved the young tender ones. Interesting.

Tyler Bertsch: Did you use grow tubes when you established?

Bob Grosz: I did, yeah. And that helped. But they could—I don’t know—they got their nose underneath there.

Tyler Bertsch: What about fertilizing? Did you do anything when you established them or are you ongoing?

Bob Grosz: Right or wrong, again, this is—I don’t know that much. It’s just a 10-10-10 that will go around each of the vines. We’ve done it once already this year, we’ll probably do it one more time this year, and then that’s basically been my pattern since they started them. Gotcha.

Tyler Bertsch: You haven’t done any petiole testing where you take the leaves and?

Bob Grosz: Now that I know that NDSU through the North Dakota Grape and Wine Association will assist with that, that is the plan that we’ll do some petiole testing this year. And then like I said earlier, I also want to do some core samples out there of the soil to see if I can figure out that one area of the vineyard.

Tyler Bertsch: What advice would you give to somebody starting a vineyard today knowing the struggles you've had or the winds you've had, things like that?

Bob Grosz: My sales pitch out here is I encourage people to grow because there are not enough growers in North Dakota. There are only 21 wineries in North Dakota right now and some of those are cideries because it’s the same license. But even with that, there isn’t a grape that’s grown for wine in a commercial purpose that doesn’t get sold in North Dakota. All of us have to go outside of state. We go a little bit into Minnesota to find some grapes, I’ve gone down to Nebraska to find some grapes. So my advice would be, please do it. And that’s what I tell people. So like I said earlier, across the river they put 500 vines in for us, over by Kindred a guy put another thousand vines in for us. So I’m trying to encourage people to do it. There are a lot of great people across the state. Harlene, her knowledge is phenomenal. There used to be a gentleman who owned what was Red Trail Vineyard at the time, Rodney Hogan. It’s now under new ownership. Rodney is a source of tremendous knowledge. So I would connect people with those individuals and then anytime you can, like I have today, ask questions.

Tyler Bertsch: Now, good transition into the wines. Do you think our prairie wines can truly compete, and if so, with other regions on what terms do you think they compete?

Bob Grosz: So we’ve been fortunate enough to have many gold, double golds of some of the wines that we’ve produced. The last Jefferson Cup, which was a invitational wine competition, we won the Jefferson Cup on our La Crescent. Our Crimson has been received quite a few different awards as well, so with our Frontenac and some of the others, so I would say yes. I think the thing that we need to do is we need to get people out here to try them because they are so unique and different. And people just don't know.

Tyler Bertsch: Right. People literally just don't even know. I tell people I'm going up to North Dakota, they're like, "There's grapes in North Dakota? There's grapes in Nebraska?" Yes, there is. You would think we're past that, but we're still—there's still a lot of people that aren't up to speed on it.

Bob Grosz: So we put over here—these are many of our friends from North Dakota, the different wineries and so on, just to encourage people: come here, try it, go there, try it. A rising tide raises all boats, right? Yeah. And it's really, you know, people come in and say, "Okay, I want a Cab." Well, I don't have that. So what's closest to that? Well, not really anything, but here, if you like that style of wine, try this because the flavor complexity is completely different in our grapes.

Bob Grosz: We had back in April, we had the first North Dakota Wine and Food Festival. So there were 13 of the 21 of us who were together up in Fargo. We connected with some caterers so people could come in and sample our wines and have a nibble and then go from table to table. It was amazing how many people had said, even though they live in Fargo, we're here and 4E and Bear Creek and some of the others are close by, they had no idea. So it’s just to get people to be aware of it, to sample it, and then say, "Okay, it’s not exactly what I would go to when I go to the liquor store, but oh my goodness, this is a good wine."

Tyler Bertsch: Nice. Last question. What are you most proud of in your years doing all this? What keeps you coming back? What excites you?

Bob Grosz: Favorite thing for me is when people who become regulars come out here because they like the grapes that are grown out there produced into the wine that I can do here or other grapes that I've brought in, and they come in with friends and they say, "Welcome to our winery." I love to hear "our winery." It’s that people feel that this is a part of their community and they feel somewhat ownership of it. That makes me feel good. The number of people who have been engaged here, who have done unique events here is pretty cool. I love that you’re part of that story. And just to hear the conversations, the laughter, the enjoyment of being here because of the fruits of our labor, both in the vineyard and in the winery, are really cool. So that’s what brings me joy. I say this is my happy place. My other job is more heady; that’s what I do. But out here, I get to get my hands dirty and I enjoy it a lot.

Tyler Bertsch: Nice well, thank you for your time!

Bob Grosz: No problem. I enjoyed the conversation.